Started Sailing

Cogs and other 12th century sailing vessels

by Chris.
(Haarlem, Netherland)

How many crew members would it have taken to man a 12th. century cog?

How would such a ship navigate in and out of dock? Would oars be used? Is it possible that smaller oared boats were ever used as tugs?
Were there other styles of ship in use at the time in Europe, capable of transporting, say, men and horses?

Questions, whose answers are presumably highly speculative, from someone who knows very little about sailing, I'm afraid!

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Cogs and other 12th century sailing vessels

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Jan 16, 2010

Right you are, speculative; but the least possible.
by: Han

Hi Chris,

In my article "the Hanseatic trade and the Cog" (History of Sailing Blog)you can find a lot of info on the cog, but none on the points you indicate, because that's where speculation comes in; there's only little documentation on them. However, as I answered Ray Udris in "Docking the tall Ships", they are educated guesses based on experience.

Let's start with the crew-number. By crew I mean a skeleton-crew, the absolute minimum to cover distances from the eastern Baltic to Flanders: my guess is that some 10-15 able seamen would do. But as the cog and it's contemporaries were the only relatively safe long-distance transporters, there must have been quite a number of passengers on board, as well as fighting men to protect ship, cargo and passengers. So the crew-total could run up to several dozens. Speaking of privacy and smell...

Manoeuvring and docking was done in the early cogs (descendants of the Viking knorrs) by oars, but as the ships developed they had too much freeboard to be rowed, so it had to be done with the aid of longboats and kedging. The single sail did not allow for manoeuvring.

The cog's contemporaries in the north-western European waters were, as far as known, all derived from the knorr. They were round-stemmed, and their main home-ports were on the northern French coast and the Cinque Ports on the English southern coast; certainly capable of taking armed men and horses, they were mainly used as coastal vessels and only seldom ventured outside the, then rather limited, English sphere of influence.

You must definitely be interested in history; how did you find us?

I hope to have satisfied your curiosity; you know what to do in case other questions arise.

Regards,
Han.

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Jan 16, 2010
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Submitted by: Han

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Hi Chris, In my article "the Hanseatic trade and the Cog" (History of Sailing Blog)you can find a lot of info on the cog, but none on the points you indicate, because that's where speculation comes in; there's only little documentation on them. However, as I answered Ray Udris in "Docking the tall Ships", they are educated guesses based on experience. Let's start with the crew-number. By crew I mean a skeleton-crew, the absolute minimum to cover distances from the eastern Baltic to Flanders: my guess is that some 10-15 able seamen would do. But as the cog and it's contemporaries were the only relatively safe long-distance transporters, there must have been quite a number of passengers on board, as well as fighting men to protect ship, cargo and passengers. So the crew-total could run up to several dozens. Speaking of privacy and smell... Manoeuvring and docking was done in the early cogs (descendants of the Viking knorrs) by oars, but as the ships developed they had too much freeboard to be rowed, so it had to be done with the aid of longboats and kedging. The single sail did not allow for manoeuvring. The cog's contemporaries in the north-western European waters were, as far as known, all derived from the knorr. They were round-stemmed, and their main home-ports were on the northern French coast and the Cinque Ports on the English southern coast; certainly capable of taking armed men and horses, they were mainly used as coastal vessels and only seldom ventured outside the, then rather limited, English sphere of influence. You must definitely be interested in history; how did you find us? I hope to have satisfied your curiosity; you know what to do in case other questions arise. Regards, Han.

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Jan 16, 2010

Thanks, Han
by: Chris

Thanks, Han. I found the site by googling medieval ships and related stuff.
I'm writing a story, and I need to send two knights and their horses on a voyage equivalent to, say, Southern England to Tangiers, with a minimum of fuss and as few crew members as possible!
The Knorr (much more elegant than the cog!) would need less crew, perhaps: but could it undertake such a voyage?
Somewhere on the internet I also read about a 12th. century Anglo-Norman warship the Nef. Did that also have a square sail?
Lot's of questions occur to me, such as: what ships were the Crusaders using in that century?
Thanks again for the suggestions about how cogs docked. I believe they had shallow, quite flat bottoms too, for beaching with the tide.
Chris

Jan 17, 2010

The early nef could do...
by: Han

Hi Chris,
I found the following text on the site of The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea:
"Nef, a French ship of the 15th and 16th centuries, a development and enlargement of the cog up to 300–400 tons. They were three masted with square mainsail and topsail on the mainmast and a single square sail on the fore and mizzen, with a spritsail under the bowsprit. Some of the larger nefs carried a bonaventure mizzen with a square sail in addition. They were of carvel construction and were used for trade and war purposes alike."
I think this ship had nothing to do with the cog, for many reasons, but it doesn't suit your time-window.
Also, on www.ageofsail.net/:
"Nef: 1.Also called a roundship, a single-masted clinker-built ship used in Europe during the middle-ages until the 14th century, for example as transportation for the crusades. Descendant of the Viking longship a Nef still had a side-rudder and was used in Northern regions a century or two longer with a sternpost-rudder."
This last definition exactly fits my description of the cog's contemporaries on The Channel's coasts, the only mistake they make is the descendancy of the longship. As a descendant of the knorr it could certainly be beached on the tide, and was very seaworthy.
The cog had a flat but narrow bottom and was definitely a deep-water ship with it's draught between 6 and 10 feet, so it was not suited to be beached on the tide.
If you want more help with your story, I would gladly provide it; to that end I asked Alex to mail you my e-mail address, if only he has yours. You can mail it to him by using the contact-form.
Hope to hear from you,
Han.

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Jan 17, 2010
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Hi Chris, I found the following text on the site of The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea: "Nef, a French ship of the 15th and 16th centuries, a development and enlargement of the cog up to 300–400 tons. They were three masted with square mainsail and topsail on the mainmast and a single square sail on the fore and mizzen, with a spritsail under the bowsprit. Some of the larger nefs carried a bonaventure mizzen with a square sail in addition. They were of carvel construction and were used for trade and war purposes alike." I think this ship had nothing to do with the cog, for many reasons, but it doesn't suit your time-window. Also, on www.ageofsail.net/: "Nef: 1.Also called a roundship, a single-masted clinker-built ship used in Europe during the middle-ages until the 14th century, for example as transportation for the crusades. Descendant of the Viking longship a Nef still had a side-rudder and was used in Northern regions a century or two longer with a sternpost-rudder." This last definition exactly fits my description of the cog's contemporaries on The Channel's coasts, the only mistake they make is the descendancy of the longship. As a descendant of the knorr it could certainly be beached on the tide, and was very seaworthy. The cog had a flat but narrow bottom and was definitely a deep-water ship with it's draught between 6 and 10 feet, so it was not suited to be beached on the tide. If you want more help with your story, I would gladly provide it; to that end I asked Alex to mail you my e-mail address, if only he has yours. You can mail it to him by using the contact-form. Hope to hear from you, Han.

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May 04, 2010

12th C Cog trading ships
by: Roy

Hi,
I found your page via Google and a very interesting read indeed.
I am also a writer and am searching for working information on the 12th c. Cog sailing ships but am using quite a lot of license because the ships I'm writing about are sailing out of Bordeaux for Bilbao. These same ships or similar would also I feel sail north to the main Norman ports possibly transporting highly prized Arab horses for breeding.
I would also think that favored paying passengers would be carried in the castle like cabin at the stern. Could you tell me what that cabin was called if known?
Regards,
Roy

May 07, 2010

It's not easy being green (or being called "expert").
by: Han

Hi Roy,

Suddenly I seem to be drowning in a sea of writers dreaming up improbable trips! No blame to you or Chris, just pulling legs ;-)).

For trips between Bordeaux and Bilbao you really need a lot of license: even the ship Chris and I agreed on, the Nef, hardly ever came south of Bordeaux. The best bet as far as I'm concerned would have been a local fisherman, used to the waters of the Golfe de Gascogne, a dangerous area even now for unexperienced sailors.
Horse-transport, in particular high-priced Arabs, couldn't be done in long stages anyway.
My, your, and Chris's problems are the area and the period you chose for your stories: there are hardly any records or artefacts from which to derive information, in contrast to the areas roughly between France, England, Flanders, Holland, Germany and the Scandinavia's.

Favoured passengers, as you call them, would find only scant shelter below the fore- and aft- castles, as they were open at all sides; only after they were integrated in the hull, some two centuries later, you could, with some fantasy, place a cabin there, but the captain/ship-owner would hardly have passengers favoured (=rich) enough to leave his sheltered place.

Hope this meagre reply satisfies your needs. If ever your and Chris's stories are published, may we count on a citation to this site?

Regards,

Han.

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May 07, 2010
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Submitted by: Han

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Hi Roy, Suddenly I seem to be drowning in a sea of writers dreaming up improbable trips! No blame to you or Chris, just pulling legs ;-)). For trips between Bordeaux and Bilbao you really need a lot of license: even the ship Chris and I agreed on, the Nef, hardly ever came south of Bordeaux. The best bet as far as I'm concerned would have been a local fisherman, used to the waters of the Golfe de Gascogne, a dangerous area even now for unexperienced sailors. Horse-transport, in particular high-priced Arabs, couldn't be done in long stages anyway. My, your, and Chris's problems are the area and the period you chose for your stories: there are hardly any records or artefacts from which to derive information, in contrast to the areas roughly between France, England, Flanders, Holland, Germany and the Scandinavia's. Favoured passengers, as you call them, would find only scant shelter below the fore- and aft- castles, as they were open at all sides; only after they were integrated in the hull, some two centuries later, you could, with some fantasy, place a cabin there, but the captain/ship-owner would hardly have passengers favoured (=rich) enough to leave his sheltered place. Hope this meagre reply satisfies your needs. If ever your and Chris's stories are published, may we count on a citation to this site? Regards, Han.

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May 07, 2010

Green suits you very well...
by: Chris

Han, Roy..
Suddenly more reactions to my question!
If you are interested: my story is finished. I ended up describing a fifty-foot boat more like the old knorr (side steering-oar, square sail etc.) With the help of only six oarsmen and a rather favourable wind, it stayed within sight of the French and Spanish coastlines and got my three characters (one of whom started the voyage as a stowaway beneath the fore-deck) safely to the Afrik shore (about where Tangiers is now).
A lot of licence, I suppose (but it's that kind of story!)
As for 'when it's published'...well, I'm working on it, but.....
Good luck with yours, Roy!
And thanks for everything, Han.
Chris.

Jul 26, 2010

Editing a novel set in 12th century England could anyone help please?
by: Gaynor

Hello I'm editing a novel set in the mid to late 12th century and the writer describes a ship as a double masted sloop. I've just done a little research and found that sloops were much later and that the vessal of choice would be a cog is this correct? I know very little about boats and even less about 12th century ones and was hoping for some expert knowledge.

Jul 27, 2010

Hands off!
by: Han

Dear Gaynor,

If I was a serious editor I wouldn't want my name connected in any way with a story like that: license is allowed to some extend, but this is going way too far. Comparatively it's like Napoleon being driven to his Waterloo in a Ferrari Formula One.

Hope you'll find a more likely story to edit,

Regards,

Han.

Jul 27, 2010

Thank You
by: Gaynor

Thank you

I'm on it and this is why editors are paid. The story is great, but what a lot of writers do is get caught up in the story and facts be damned,the boat is only mentioned once and the whole scene is about 3 paragraphs, but still I think it's the attention that can make a novel.

This is a great site for someone like myself who needs to know that there are experts out there and that they also care if the ship or clothing is right for the period. When I read a novel the first slip an author makes breaks the spell and it becomes just pages with words on. I work on the idea that all readers are like me and that everyone is an expert on something.

I've changed the boat, or is it ship, I read somewhere that the British Navy has a special designation for which term you use. If questioned now on my change, I can send them here so they can see for themselves.

This is a wonderful site full of information thank you again, I've learned a lot just visiting.

Jul 28, 2010

This has developed into an interesting thread, thanks to all!
by: Han

Hi Chris, Roy and Gaynor,

It was a real pleasure to meet you, I hope your respective projects will meet your expectations.

It is also a pleasure for me to see my work is recognised, for there is no money in it for me. I began this history-project in the hope it would be remunerated in time; the money, if and when it comes, will be sent to welfare-organisations for sailors in need and lifeboat-organisations. Alas, that time has not yet arrived, but I hope it will before I can't write any more.

Maybe we'll meet again.

Regards,

Han.